In this continuing series, we are examining evidences that God never intended for non-Jews to keep all of Torah.
I respect the heartfelt longing for Torah that many in the One Law or Torah revival movements feel (these are movements which do not distinguish between the duty of Jews and non-Jews with regard to Torah).
What I cannot respect is sloppy exegesis, repeating
Derek, thank you for another insightful post. I really enjoyed it.
Most of the One Law folks (like Adam and others), however, will try to counter all of the points you made here by insisting that they have joined Israel and thus inherited ALL of it’s covenants (and mitzvahs). Since they are Israel now, they are no longer foreigners or sojourners, but Israelites. So, your examples, they would say, do not apply to them.
On Adam’s site, in the “Beliefs” section, one could see the following statement:
“15. Jews according to the flesh (descendants of Abraham through Isaac, whether through the bloodline of the mother or the father) who place their faith in Israel’s Messiah Yeshua have not disowned or separated themselves from their race and Judaic heritage, but remain sons and daughters of Israel. Thus should celebrate their heritage and traditions. Gentiles who place their faith in Israel’s Messiah Yeshua are also spiritually sons and daughters of Israel and thus also share in this rich and meaningful heritage. ”
Special attention must be paid to this one phrase: “Gentiles who place their faith in Israel’s Messiah Yeshua are also spiritually sons and daughters of Israel”
So, as you can see, instead of being spiritual sons of Abraham (who was declared righteous BEFORE the Law was given to Israel and is the father of MANY nations) as NT states concerning the Gentile believers (Galatians 3:7), the “One Law” folks add their own extra-biblical belief: Gentiles are now spiritual sons of Jacob TOO, something that the Bible never says! The groundwork has been laid – they have become Israelites (although not Jews, as they would say) and thus should follow the same laws!
Shalom,
Gene
Uh, Gene:
> Most of the One Law folks (like Adam and others),
> however, will try to counter all of the points you
> made here by insisting that they have joined Israel
> and thus inherited ALL of it
Adam…
You said: “You seem to think
Hi Derek. It has been awhile since I have responded to one of your blogs. I recently had some free time and decided to browse what was going on in your world. When I came across your statement 3, I wanted to comment. I also read Part 4. You stated:
3. God specifically denies that Sabbath is for the non-Jews, but says it is a sign between Israel and himself (see Part 4, the exception is non-Jews living within Israel
Adam… OK, let’s dissect your comments…
You said: “You seem to think
> I don
> Should Gentile believers be circumcised according
> to the Law of Moses, on the eight day. Since you
> state that there
Adam…
You said: “This is a question with a trap in it. Since, by definition, non-Jewish BELIEVERS are far OLDER than eight days old, OBVIOUSLY THEY CANNOT BE CIRCUMCISED UNDER THE COMMANDMENTS IN TORAH!
Now, if you mean, should they circumcise their sons eight days after they are born, yes.”
That’s all word games…. let me rephrase it for you without providing you with an age escape hatch from this “trap”:
A JEWISH ADULT BELIEVER, should he or not be circumcised if he was not as a child, as the law requires of ALL Jews (regardless of age)? If he should be circumcised(as ALL Jews are required), why not also an ADULT GENTILE BELIEVERS, if they are all UNDER THE SAME LAW now?
Gene
should he be cicumcised .according to the oral law. or just get a knife like abraham and do it.i think that if a gentile wants to be cicumcised just go have a doctor cut him. hashem would know the true reason why he is doing it .in my opinion i dont think it needs to be done, according to the oral law. just done according to the torah. my humble opinion.
george…
You said: “should he be cicumcised .according to the oral law. or just get a knife like abraham and do it.i think that if a gentile wants to be cicumcised just go have a doctor cut him. hashem would know the true reason why he is doing it .in my opinion i dont think it needs to be done, according to the oral law. just done according to the torah. my humble opinion.”
The argument here is not where gentile believers should be circumcised because of any Torah law or oral law. If you read your Bible, it will tell you that gentiles believers SHOULD NOT be circumcised AT ALL (medical reasons notwithstanding, of course). In fact, they are actually warned not to do it. Let see what Shaul actually said concerning gentile believers:
“Mark my words! I, Paul tell you that if you let yourself be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all.” (Galatians 5:2)
He wrote this to Galatians, a gentile congregation. Shaul would have never make such blanket statement if G-d or Torah required gentile believers to get circumcised or even promoted circ. as a good voluntary thing for gentiles, which of course it never does. If G-d wanted gentiles to get circumcised, Shaul would be violating G-d’s will when he told gentiles not to do it! Please not that Shaul was talking to the gentile BELIEVERS (not unbelievers just learning about their faith).
At the same time please note that Shaul would have never said this to the Jewish believers (who must be circumcised in accordance to the Abrahamic and Mosaic covenants given to their fathers). In fact, in Acts Shaul actually had to prove to the Jewish community that he never advocated that Jews cease performing circumcision. (Acts 21:21)
Shalom,
Gene
Pingback: Rereading on Torah and Gentiles « Messianic Jewish Musings